Open Journals

FWIW: We just had a very similar thread over at the Ontolog Forum re: the state of paper journal | info dissemination mindset. I haven’t used it but I saw: Open Journal Systems (OJS) is a journal management and publishing system that has been developed by the Public Knowledge Project through its federally funded efforts to expand and improve access to research. http://pkp.sfu.ca/?q=ojs in case open publishing is a real need.

Ed Dodds

Also discussion lists and other sorts of electronic collaboration tools when controlled (and sometimes moderated) provide more useful and timely information than classical ways of disseminating knowledge and information. So I trust openEHR lists and personal communications more than journal papers in most situations. Of course these are my own thoughts…

Best regards,

Koray Atalag, M.D.

OJS is for example used by the open-access electronic Journal of Health Informatics (eJHI, http://www.ejhi.net) with quite good experiences.

However, one problem you don’t tackle with this is the problem that a thorough peer-review process takes quite a bit of time, even if subsequent publishing after acceptance can be faster than with conventional journals.

My personal view is that both ad-hoc (email discussion lists, wikis etc) and peer-reviewed content in journals (preferably, but not necessarily open-access) are needed.

Sebastian

Sebastian Garde wrote:

OJS is for example used by the open-access electronic Journal of Health Informatics (eJHI, http://www.ejhi.net) with quite good experiences.

However, one problem you don’t tackle with this is the problem that a thorough peer-review process takes quite a bit of time, even if subsequent publishing after acceptance can be faster than with conventional journals.

My personal view is that both ad-hoc (email discussion lists, wikis etc) and peer-reviewed content in journals (preferably, but not necessarily open-access) are needed.

in my view, the huge problem not tackled by peer review processes is that it is a paper process - it is human beings considering arguments put down on paper. That’s not how we validate engineering or medical practice in the real world. A bunch of learned reviewers in my view won’t find out if something works or is viable by reading paper.

  • thomas

Sebastian Garde wrote:

OJS is for example used by the open-access electronic Journal of Health Informatics (eJHI, http://www.ejhi.net) with quite good experiences.

However, one problem you don’t tackle with this is the problem that a thorough peer-review process takes quite a bit of time, even if subsequent publishing after acceptance can be faster than with conventional journals.

My personal view is that both ad-hoc (email discussion lists, wikis etc) and peer-reviewed content in journals (preferably, but not necessarily open-access) are needed.

in my view, the huge problem not tackled by peer review processes is that it is a paper process - it is human beings considering arguments put down on paper. That’s not how we validate engineering or medical practice in the real world. A bunch of learned reviewers in my view won’t find out if something works or is viable by reading paper.

  • thomas

Actually a peer-reviewed online Journal called BioMed Center - Medical Informatics and Decision Making requires that software used in the paper to be openly accessible, aka open source, to the readers so that the described approach can be reproduced. Having access to the software would make it easier to make assessment for the reviewers.

Regards,
Rong

--- Thomas Beale <Thomas.Beale@OceanInformatics.biz>
wrote:

in my view, the huge problem not tackled by peer
review processes is that it is a paperprocess - it is
human beings considering arguments put down on
paper.That's not how we validate engineering or
medical practice in the realworld. A bunch of learned
reviewers in my view won't find out ifsomething works
or is viable by reading paper.

GOBSAT :wink:

Nandalal
- thomas

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openEHR-clinical@openehr.org

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Thomas Beale wrote:

Sebastian Garde wrote:

OJS is for example used by the open-access electronic Journal of Health
Informatics (eJHI, http://www.ejhi.net) with quite good experiences.

However, one problem you don't tackle with this is the problem that a thorough
peer-review process takes quite a bit of time, even if subsequent publishing
after acceptance can be faster than with conventional journals.

My personal view is that both ad-hoc (email discussion lists, wikis etc) and
peer-reviewed content in journals (preferably, but not necessarily
open-access) are needed.

in my view, the huge problem not tackled by peer review processes is that it is
a paper process - it is human beings considering arguments put down on paper.
That's not how we validate engineering or medical practice in the real world. A
bunch of learned reviewers in my view won't find out if something works or is
viable by reading paper.

Thomas,

Peer-reviewed scientific publication works on trust - the reviewers and
the readers trust that the authors did what they said they did, and
found what they said they found. Occasionally that trust is broken, but
the penalties, both career-wise and increasingly through law, are rather
severe, and because most papers are written by teams, a lot of collusion
between team members is needed to get away with such fraud (and there is
usually a whistleblower). Where fraud has got through, the co-authors
have almost always been shown to be asleep at the wheel, and that is
almost as career-limiting as directly falsifying results.

However, I agree that reviewers reading, say, a paper which describes
how openEHR is intended to work will have no idea how well it works in
the real-world. But reviewers reading a report on trials of how well it
works in the real-world should be able to form a valid opinion as to
whether the evaluation was done adequately, whether the results are
likely to be valid and whether the conclusions of the evaluation report
are reasonable and not overblown or unduly negative.

In other words, no-one expects reviewers to evaluate software
themselves, but they can review reports of others' evaluations of
software implementations of openEHR (and everything else).

Alas, such evaluation reports are few and far between. Everyone is keen
to describe their new method or new software in a paper - and that is a
valid first step - but evaluations of how well that method or software
actually works in the real-world are fairly rare in the health
informatics literature. In the computer science literature, descriptions
of new methods are almost always accompanied by quantitative comparisons
of the performance or efficiency of the new method against existing
methods or algorithms. But that is because an algorithm is much easier
to evaluate than the complex interplay of computer science, software
engineering, IT and human social structures and interchanges that make
up a pilot or deployed health information system. Nevertheless, such
evaluations are necessary when patients' lives and billions of dollars
of investment are to be bet on a new health informatics technology like
openEHR, because nothing ever works as well in practice as it does in
theory. There are always issues and circumstances that were not thought
of. That's OK, if it still works better than alternatives, but that gap
between theory and practice does need to be evaluated.

Tim C

Rong Chen wrote:

Actually a peer-reviewed online Journal called BioMed Center - Medical
Informatics and Decision Making requires that software used in the paper to
be openly accessible, aka open source, to the readers so that the described
approach can be reproduced. Having access to the software would make it
easier to make assessment for the reviewers.

What an excellent policy! That is analogous to the growing trend in
biomedical and biological science (and physical science) journals for
researchers to make their raw data available to reviewers and readers,
so that analyses can be checked, alternative analyses done, and the data
itself scrutinised for tell-tale signs of fabrication. There is a lot of
resistance to this idea, but a decade from now it will be usual
practice, I think.

Tim C

In een bericht met de datum 23-1-2007 16:36:41 West-Europa (standaardtijd), schrijft rong.acode@gmail.com:

Tim,

Although we will probably have to wait some time (let’s say 6-12 months for early ones) for 3rd party evaluations to start happening, there may well be mileage in discussing exactly what kinds of evaluations you think people would like to see. From my engineering point of view, performance, volumetrics and availability in heavy multi-user situations are basics. We can also try to show that the maintenance cost and semantic reliability are greatly improved (although the former might take a 5 year study). But there must be many other interesting measures to consider.

  • thomas

Tim Churches wrote:

The real problem maybe that there is no real way of
evaluating and comparing software that is acceptable.

Nandalal

Thomas Beale wrote:
> Sebastian Garde wrote:
>> OJS is for example used by the open-access
electronic Journal of Health
>> Informatics (eJHI, http://www.ejhi.net) with
quite good experiences.
>>
>> However, one problem you don't tackle with this
is the problem that a thorough
>> peer-review process takes quite a bit of time,
even if subsequent publishing
>> after acceptance can be faster than with
conventional journals.
>>
>> My personal view is that both ad-hoc (email
discussion lists, wikis etc) and
>> peer-reviewed content in journals (preferably,
but not necessarily
>> open-access) are needed.
>>
> in my view, the huge problem not tackled by peer
review processes is that it is
> a paper process - it is human beings considering
arguments put down on paper.
> That's not how we validate engineering or medical
practice in the real world. A
> bunch of learned reviewers in my view won't find
out if something works or is
> viable by reading paper.

Thomas,

Peer-reviewed scientific publication works on trust
- the reviewers and
the readers trust that the authors did what they
said they did, and
found what they said they found. Occasionally that
trust is broken, but
the penalties, both career-wise and increasingly
through law, are rather
severe, and because most papers are written by
teams, a lot of collusion
between team members is needed to get away with such
fraud (and there is
usually a whistleblower). Where fraud has got
through, the co-authors
have almost always been shown to be asleep at the
wheel, and that is
almost as career-limiting as directly falsifying
results.

However, I agree that reviewers reading, say, a
paper which describes
how openEHR is intended to work will have no idea
how well it works in
the real-world. But reviewers reading a report on
trials of how well it
works in the real-world should be able to form a
valid opinion as to
whether the evaluation was done adequately, whether
the results are
likely to be valid and whether the conclusions of
the evaluation report
are reasonable and not overblown or unduly negative.

In other words, no-one expects reviewers to evaluate
software
themselves, but they can review reports of others'
evaluations of
software implementations of openEHR (and everything
else).

Alas, such evaluation reports are few and far
between. Everyone is keen
to describe their new method or new software in a
paper - and that is a
valid first step - but evaluations of how well that
method or software
actually works in the real-world are fairly rare in
the health
informatics literature. In the computer science
literature, descriptions
of new methods are almost always accompanied by
quantitative comparisons
of the performance or efficiency of the new method
against existing
methods or algorithms. But that is because an
algorithm is much easier
to evaluate than the complex interplay of computer
science, software
engineering, IT and human social structures and
interchanges that make
up a pilot or deployed health information system.
Nevertheless, such
evaluations are necessary when patients' lives and
billions of dollars
of investment are to be bet on a new health
informatics technology like
openEHR, because nothing ever works as well in
practice as it does in
theory. There are always issues and circumstances
that were not thought
of. That's OK, if it still works better than
alternatives, but that gap
between theory and practice does need to be
evaluated.

Tim C

_______________________________________________
openEHR-clinical mailing list
openEHR-clinical@openehr.org

http://www.chime.ucl.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical

Nandalal Gunaratne wrote:

The real problem maybe that there is no real way of
evaluating and comparing software that is acceptable.

Nandalal

I don't really agree with that. You can objectively check things like:
- it installs and runs
- its performance for a given user load
- how many EHRs (or whatever) it can handle within a given performance limit
- its response to security attacks
- its overall availability
- its mean time to failure
- its mean time to fix
- its cost
- its maintenance cost
- etc etc

All of these can be measured and compared. It is harder admittedly to
compare whether the semantics and functionality are better is harder.

- thomas

Dear Tim,

I disagree with you.

Many aspects of software and systems can be evaluated.
See ISO 9126

See CCHIT in the USA
and an European project where I participate: Q-Rec

Greetings

Gerard

– –
Gerard Freriks, MD
Huigsloterdijk 378
2158 LR Buitenkaag
The Netherlands

T: +31 252544896
M: +31 620347088
E: gfrer@luna.nl

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin 11 Nov 1755

Hi Gerard,

The comment was not made by Tim. But thanks for the
references.

Can anyone tell me what open source software has been
so evaluated and been certified?

Nandalal

Dear Tim,

I disagree with you.

Many aspects of software and systems can be
evaluated.
See ISO 9126

See CCHIT in the USA
and an European project where I participate: Q-Rec

Greetings

Gerard

-- <private> --
Gerard Freriks, MD
Huigsloterdijk 378
2158 LR Buitenkaag
The Netherlands

T: +31 252544896
M: +31 620347088
E: gfrer@luna.nl

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to
purchase a little
temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin
Franklin 11 Nov
1755

>
> The real problem maybe that there is no real way
of
> evaluating and comparing software that is
acceptable.
>
> Nandalal

> _______________________________________________
openEHR-clinical mailing list
openEHR-clinical@openehr.org

http://www.chime.ucl.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical

Nandalai,

Sorry for the mix-up.

There was a European project where they payed attention to quality control and certification.
Name: Picnic.

Gerard

– –
Gerard Freriks, MD
Huigsloterdijk 378
2158 LR Buitenkaag
The Netherlands

T: +31 252544896
M: +31 620347088
E: gfrer@luna.nl

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin 11 Nov 1755

About Picnic
I served as the project manger in phase 1 of the EU project PICNIC, and can provide some additional information.

PICNIC was initiated by regional health care providers (regional health care authorities) , who planned to develop next generation regional health care networks to support new ways of providing health and social care.

Thus, the starting point was description of new health services. To support these, two areas were elaborated:

  • An multi tire architecture, which was open and interoperable (today you will call it a SOA architecture)
  • Applications and components implemented according to the Open Source Model

The most mature Open Source components were developed in the two areas:

  • A Collaboration IT Service - a system for sharing treatment on a patient - secure and instant messaging based. This service has been further developed in Denmark.

  • A Shared Record Service - this was based on several OS components. The service was piloted in Greece. Some of the components these got an uptake in Ireland, i.e. the PIDS component.

As a part of the project a certification strategy was described. However, implementation of the certification process and running the the PICNIC component through the certification process, was not included in the project.
So the component are there and have been in use - but they have not been through a formal quality control…

Some references:

More info at http://www.medcom1-4.dk/picnic/default.htm

Book: The PICNIC Experience
Volume 115 Studies in Health Technology and Informatics
Edited by: N. Saranummi, D. Piggott, D.G. Katehakis, M. Tsiknakis and K. Bernstein

Paper:



|
Bruun-Rasmussen M, Bernstein K, Chronaki C.
Collaboration–a new IT-service in the next generation of regional health care networks.
Int J Med Inform. 2003 Jul;70(2-3):205-14.
|

  • | - |

Kind regards

Knut Bernstein

Gerard Freriks wrote:

Dear Tim,

I disagree with you.

Many aspects of software and systems can be evaluated.
See ISO 9126

As has been already noted, I did not make that comment, although
Nandalal Gunaratne's email client made it look like it came from me. In
fact, it is purely Nandalal's view.

My view is that (health information) software and systems are not easy
or simple to evaluate, nor do I think that there is one correct way to
do so, but that Nandalal's position is far too negative. The efficacy or
value of a new drug or some other new form of medical treatment is also
a very hard thing to evaluate reliably and comprehensively, and again
there is no one, simple, correct way to do, but for goodness sake that
doesn't mean we shouldn't try to evaluate such things. Nandalal's
assertion that "there is no real way of evaluating and comparing
software that is acceptable." seems to me to be analogous to saying that
there is no completely satisfactory way of evaluating and comparing
treatments in clinical medicine, and thus we should bother.

Tim C

Thomas Beale wrote:

Tim,

Although we will probably have to wait some time (let's say 6-12 months for
early ones) for 3rd party evaluations to start happening, there may well be
mileage in discussing exactly what kinds of evaluations you think people would
like to see.

Agree.

From my engineering point of view, performance, volumetrics and
availability in heavy multi-user situations are basics.

Agree. As a public health epidemiologist, I am personally interested in
how openEHR might perform in the setting of population-based data
collections, where millions (or tens or hundreds of millions) of records
and large aggregate queries, such as cross-tabulation queries - are the
norm. We know that traditional normalised relational databases don't cut
the mustard for such purposes, keen to see whether openEHR does.

We can also try to show
that the maintenance cost and semantic reliability are greatly improved
(although the former might take a 5 year study). But there must be many other
interesting measures to consider.

How to measure "semantic reliability" is the challenge, but if openEHR
claims to offer improvements in semantic interoperability, then these
claims or aims need to be evaluated as rigorously as possible - ideally
quantitatively, but at least qualitatively in a systematic and
principled fashion rather than just anecdotally (which is what we've
seen so far: assertions like "openEHR does work works well for us in our
lab/product").

Here is a first stab - I am sure much better and more elegant evaluation
ideas can be developed:

1) Assemble descriptions of several clinical situations. By
descriptions, I mean natural language descriptions in the form of
full-text, unencoded clinical histories and progress notes etc, abetted
by investigation results, diagnostic images and their reports, and
perhaps even photos of the patient and so on. A dictated, textual report
which runs to 4 or 5 or more pages from a fastidious and diligent
specialist physician to a GP might be good raw material.

2) Train at least two independent groups of clinicians and
informaticians (but not people with personal investments of time or
otehr interests in the development of openEHR i.e. not anyone on this
list) in the use of openEHR, including the creation of archetype
definitions and templates.

3) Give these groups access to the same repository of openEHR archetype
definitions and templates, and access to the same set of openEHR
software tools, and ask each group to independently a) select and/or
construct a set of archetype and template definitions which they feel
are required to capture the information in the clinical material (as
described above) provided to them, and b) to capture the clinical
scenario information in the openEHR structures that they create.

4) Have a third party compare in some pre-defined way the two openEHR
versions of the original clinical scenario, using a predefined scoring
system (which would need to be developed, or do such things exist?).
Alternatively, the two groups might exchange their openEHR
representations and rate each other.

There are lots of variations on this theme, but this sort of evaluation
would seem to test the "impedance" and information loss at: a) the
human->openEHR interface; b) the openEHR<->openEHR data exchange
interface;, and c) the openEHR->human interface. All of these interfaces
matter, and even if openEHR is a great technical solution, it is how it
works in the real world, which is what an evaluation like the one
outlined above aims to test, is what matters.

Of course, all the or forgoing depends just as much on the quality and
completeness and scope of things like the openEHR archetype and
templates repository(s), and of end-user openEHR training materials etc,
and not just on the technical correctness of the openEHR constraints or
query languages and so on. Although a good technical basis is a good
place to start. But it is just the start, if widespread adoption of
openEHR is the goal.

Tim C

As they say in Russia, "initiative is punished by execution." Go ahead and
do it. Set up the professional network, coordinate the dozens of
institutions that might be involved, raise the money necessary for such an
effort. Invite the first, second and all the third parties to the feast and
share with us your findings.

Ogi Pishev

Tim and All,

If I were to be asked the approach I would adopt would be to look as the stated objectives of openEHR and work from those to design appropriate evaluation approaches.

The goals of technology independence, life long record viability, totally seamless record transfer as well the obvious ones around utility, clinician friendliness, rich CDS support and performance would be high on my list.

On a specific approach I would be most keen to see say 10000 unselected GP and 1 or two different office speciality based encounter types (including all the incoming and outgoing pathology, radiology reports etc) recorded and then faithfully moved between a couple of openEHR instances (preserving all the information context, clarity, alerts provided and so on).

Ideally such testing would be conducted against a background of progressively improving and enhanced archetype content to make sure all the versioning etc works as expected.

I would also be keen to validate the medico-legal roll back to a specific date etc.

This would establish a usability and utility base - and then Tim’s advanced reporting etc is of interest. The number and variety of records captured would ensure all the scope, governance and maintenance issues for the archetypes would also be assured, at least at a single point of time.

Just a few thoughts

Cheers

David

Dear Tim,

Agree. As a public health epidemiologist, I am personally interested in
how openEHR might perform in the setting of population-based data
collections, where millions (or tens or hundreds of millions) of records
and large aggregate queries, such as cross-tabulation queries - are the
norm. We know that traditional normalised relational databases don’t cut
the mustard for such purposes, keen to see whether openEHR does.

You will agree with me that a system build to facilitate the healthcare provider in its daily work has in certain areas other requirements than a system that is to facilitate the epidemiologist.
Where OpenEHR can be of help is the fact that information is exposed to functions, modules and services in an EHR-system in an uniform way independent of the type of database.

To investigate the requirements needed for daily care and epidemiology and compare both and see where there is overlap and where there are differences is an interesting exercise.
It is my hunch that OpenEHR provide many advantages.
So this will be the null hypothesis to be disproved.

Gerard

– –
Gerard Freriks, MD
Huigsloterdijk 378
2158 LR Buitenkaag
The Netherlands

T: +31 252544896
M: +31 620347088
E: gfrer@luna.nl

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin 11 Nov 1755