Articles on Healthcare, Complexity, Change, Process, IT and the role of openEHR etc

There are many things that can be improved in openEHR, no doubt about it. Some comments. First of all, HL7 charges membership fees, meeting attendance fees and purchase fees for the standards; a small company can easily spend $10,000 - $20,000 per annum just on the cash outlay. Larger companies routinely spend $100k per annum when you take into account meeting attendance expenses and opportunity costs. These fees, plus donations by some large companies, fund HL7 marketing efforts. Such an operation does not come for free.

If we are to have regional communities, an affiliate model of some kind makes sense. However there is no getting away from some prerequisites:

  • someone has to pay for the human resource at both local and central levels; 100% volunteer work is just too unreliable

  • there has to be a way to get all the affiliates established in the first place, which really means creating an association in each country that subscribes to the same common cause - i.e. getting a lot of countries to agree on a common thing. History tells us this is VERY HARD.

  • the ‘common cause’ almost certainly has to have some official standards status, or regional affiliates might get lots of interested individuals, but will fail to get MoH/DoH involvement, and hence fail to influence national programmes, and and probably also vendors
    In sum: the organisation needs a distributed organisational governance structure, and it needs sufficient legitimacy for funding to be provided.

Now, the world currently already includes ISO, CEN, HL7, IHE, IHTSDO, OMG, and dozens of other standards bodies, which have a) some governance structure and b) sufficient perceived legitimacy to get some funding. However, there is great fatigue on the user side: most of these organisations compete, don’t cooperate properly, don’t formally or empirically validate their deliverables, and are not strongly driven by their main stakeholders. For this reason, openEHR has stayed away from creating yet another organisation, overlaid on this crowded scene.

In e-health, the exception to the above is IHTSDO, a relative newcomer to the scene, and while not perfect, it is significantly better in all of these areas. It has:

  • a pretty good governance model, including an explicit member country and affiliate model
  • direct board membership by key stakeholders of its deliverable, i.e. national e-health programmes
  • formally defined and relatively well managed specification, software, and terminology deliverables (none of which are anything like perfect today, but the point is that a reasonable process is in place)
    For this reason, the openEHR Foundation and IHTSDO have been in talks to determine what kind of cooperation could occur in the future, which would a) allow openEHR to work within or alongside the IHTSDO global organisational structure and b) enable IHTSDO to take better advantage of the openEHR knowledge engineering technology, in particular terminology integration.

These discussions have not yet completed, but some kind of announcement could be expected in the near future. If some better organisational and funding structure can be created, aligned with an accepted standards body, then I think the whole thing will accelerate very fast.

  • thomas beale

Hi Thomas,

I didn’t mean that we have to follow the HL7 structure and ways of funding. They have good and bad things, as you point. One of the good things is that a set of small regional communities are stronger than a huge central community, because they have common interests, common language, common culture, etc. For example I spend more than 15 mins on writing emails to the lists because of the language, when I spend 3 mins writing to lists in spanish. Reading the english only specs is another thing that discourages people with no formation in the language.

But a central community is needed to build guidelines and coordinates the global view, plans and concrete objectives for OpenEHR as a whole. This is a work for the boards, but now I can’t see any interest from them (of course, individuals like you are always here, but the boards had no presence here, and we need leadership and vision).

There are many things that can be improved in openEHR, no doubt about it. Some comments. First of all, HL7 charges membership fees, meeting attendance fees and purchase fees for the standards; a small company can easily spend $10,000 - $20,000 per annum just on the cash outlay. Larger companies routinely spend $100k per annum when you take into account meeting attendance expenses and opportunity costs. These fees, plus donations by some large companies, fund HL7 marketing efforts. Such an operation does not come for free.

I don’t think that a paid membership to local communities will work, as you point, is not the best way to build a community, it’s just a way to get enought money to do things. I rather prefer an open model, where people just pay for a service, like courses. There are two types of communities, discution communities and action communities. The first are made of people with a common interest, link “cars” or “travel”, you don’t have to pay someone for something they want to talk and discuss. We have to encourage people to have interest in OpenEHR. The second, are communities of people that have common problems and try to solve them. We need this type of community to really do things, but we need to start with a common interest.

If we are to have regional communities, an affiliate model of some kind makes sense. However there is no getting away from some prerequisites:

  • someone has to pay for the human resource at both local and central levels; 100% volunteer work is just too unreliable

  • there has to be a way to get all the affiliates established in the first place, which really means creating an association in each country that subscribes to the same common cause - i.e. getting a lot of countries to agree on a common thing. History tells us this is VERY HARD.

  • the ‘common cause’ almost certainly has to have some official standards status, or regional affiliates might get lots of interested individuals, but will fail to get MoH/DoH involvement, and hence fail to influence national programmes, and and probably also vendors

In sum: the organisation needs a distributed organisational governance structure, and it needs sufficient legitimacy for funding to be provided.

Again, I think we can build some money to improve the tools, like making courses, events (like the IHE Connectathon), selling books, t-shirts, coffe cups, etc (donations are always welcome). I’m against a paid membership, it closes a community that claims to be open, this is not a gym :smiley:

Just an idea: I think the Service Model is very green yet, but when it go a little more mature, we can make automated tests to test the implementations, and they can have an OpenEHR certificate that the software meets the specification (a paid certificate).

Now, the world currently already includes ISO, CEN, HL7, IHE, IHTSDO, OMG, and dozens of other standards bodies, which have a) some governance structure and b) sufficient perceived legitimacy to get some funding. However, there is great fatigue on the user side: most of these organisations compete, don’t cooperate properly, don’t formally or empirically validate their deliverables, and are not strongly driven by their main stakeholders. For this reason, openEHR has stayed away from creating yet another organisation, overlaid on this crowded scene.

In e-health, the exception to the above is IHTSDO, a relative newcomer to the scene, and while not perfect, it is significantly better in all of these areas. It has:

  • a pretty good governance model, including an explicit member country and affiliate model
  • direct board membership by key stakeholders of its deliverable, i.e. national e-health programmes
  • formally defined and relatively well managed specification, software, and terminology deliverables (none of which are anything like perfect today, but the point is that a reasonable process is in place)

For this reason, the openEHR Foundation and IHTSDO have been in talks to determine what kind of cooperation could occur in the future, which would a) allow openEHR to work within or alongside the IHTSDO global organisational structure and b) enable IHTSDO to take better advantage of the openEHR knowledge engineering technology, in particular terminology integration.

That will be great, more tooling and terminology integration are two things to improve in OpenEHR, it’s a good oportunity to do so.

These discussions have not yet completed, but some kind of announcement could be expected in the near future. If some better organisational and funding structure can be created, aligned with an accepted standards body, then I think the whole thing will accelerate very fast.

  • thomas beale

Kind regards,
Pablo Pazos.
http://informatica-medica.blogspot.com/

Hi Thomas,

I didn’t mean that we have to follow the HL7 structure and ways of funding. They have good and bad things, as you point. One of the good things is that a set of small regional communities are stronger than a huge central community, because they have common interests, common language, common culture, etc. For example I spend more than 15 mins on writing emails to the lists because of the language, when I spend 3 mins writing to lists in spanish. Reading the english only specs is another thing that discourages people with no formation in the language.

I certainly appreciate this - I spend time reading specifications in other languages, and it is slow, since I am not perfectly bilingual. We do have some translations of specifications, but not much. Good translations are expensive and they also have to be maintained. For example, the french translation of the ADL spec is excellent, but now out of date, and there is no business model to support its updating.

Again, I think we can build some money to improve the tools, like making courses, events (like the IHE Connectathon), selling books, t-shirts, coffe cups, etc (donations are always welcome). I’m against a paid membership, it closes a community that claims to be open, this is not a gym :smiley:

well, its why we never did that. I think your ideas are good, the only concern I have is that I think there still has to be a sufficiently strong central part of the organisation to help organise materials, resources, and run the governance structure; at the moment there is not enough funding to do what would be needed to support local orgs.
But I would very much like to see openehr.cl, .br, .uy, etc.

Just an idea: I think the Service Model is very green yet, but when it go a little more mature, we can make automated tests to test the implementations, and they can have an OpenEHR certificate that the software meets the specification (a paid certificate).

we can already test with XML schemas. You are right, the service models will be a key basis for conformance testing, but it will take some more time to get the required maturity.

  • thomas

Hi All, just back from the New Zealand’s national health informatics conference – HINZ. A big thing for a small country – I must say it was as impressive as HIC and Medinfo! Related with the topic I had a chance to present our work – a full-fledged implementation of our openEHR based endoscopy application and it drew significant attention. However compared to the existence of HL7 this was miniscule. I am not going to talk why this is the case but focus on some ideas which might help us to get openEHR better adoption. I have expressed these ideas personally with some of you but here is the full list:

  • openEHR is not embracing: meaning, apart from a handful of core people fulltime employed to work on this, there is no model of ‘organic engagement’ – it is not tangible by ordinary people. And also a few others, like me, who are lucky enough to get paid to do work on openEHR from academia/research side or like Rong from a super dedicated vendor like Cambio. So how can one folk from company X can be an ‘openEHRer’ ? and why that should be compensated? Commercial organisations usually are reluctant to fund such activities if an employee is not taking some responsibility and that creates some visibility/traction.

  • In a similar vein, as Shinji pointed out, I fully agree with creating some ‘touch points’ to the openEHR by means of establishing local branches or ‘leads’ so to speak which was in the air some time ago but never started. But this has to be carefully aligned with the bigger openEHR otherwise different messages might start going out. I rather prefer establishing working or interest groups, perhaps facilitated by a more intuitive Web 2.0 tool than these discussion lists – possibly integrated with CKM. Mainly around clinician engagement and requirements capture and doing some ‘bottom-up’ wild-type modelling. I think there is now many of us who could dedicate some time to facilitate these discussions and come up with tangible results

  • Specs must continue to go with the core group with input from community. But perhaps this input process could be made more effective and all embracing.

  • I’ve had quite training on HL7, mainly CDA stuff, recently – and I agree with Seref that openEHR is big and difficult but relatively speaking much easier than HL7 v3. We must effectively communicate this and potential cost savings to vendors and programmes – and most importantly prove it! I think we have more than enough evidence now to make this publicly visible.

  • I personally think the imperfections in tooling is not a barrier to the adoption – they can do 90% of the job initially. I think it’d be too much of a burden on the already overloaded people who are putting so much and going all those extra miles.

  • I strongly believe (and thus research on) that the main catch of openEHR is on the future-proofness of health information systems as Tom pointed out in his very first paper. So why did we got stuck in this ‘interoperability’ whirlpool? Apart from the national programs and people caring for safety and quality of healthcare (well obviously not too much otherwise we’d be living in a world of health interoperability wouldn’t we?) nobody has incentives to adopt interoperability standards. And national programs do not want to make exclusive commitments. I’ve listened at Medinfo, the Singapore experience, where one of the panelists was HL7 chair I reckon, that it was v3. But I knew they’ve considered and used openEHR models and used Ocean tools and raised this during Q &A. So everybody is trying to be super smart and say the right things but in reality experimenting with other alternatives. At HINZ epSOS we shown as the flagship project for v3 in Europe and so is Swedish national EHR project. Correct me if I am wrong but both should be openEHR/13606 based?? Adopting openEHR is still risky business at the end of the day…

  • In New Zealand we are going little more smarter and have started a myriad of trials/proof of concept projects before making any commitment on standards, but the overall architecture is inevitably HL7 dominated as there is a strong NZ affiliate working very efficiently. However I am hoping to start a few openEHR based projects and prove that they can work together. I am not sure if this is good or bad from the larger openEHR perspective, through the very open minded and respected NZ chair Dr. David Hay and with very prompt response from Hugh, there’ll be an openEHR stream in the Sydney HL7 WG meeting which is international where I am hoping that the message will be that these are not absolutely mutually exclusive and there are ways of working together. Let’s be practical they don’t have any (real) means to capture clinical requirements and model plus no way to query and we don’t (yet) have something tangible as CDA for persistence and for messaging like v2.x. There might be some opportunity to come up with some new ideas?? Who knows… I think we should really get over the attitude of seeing everything HL7 is doing wrong and conversely they should stop seeing openEHR as an enemy. There is a lot of really good work going on in HL7 and IHE SIG and WGs – especially around getting clinical requirements. I think the chances of wider adoption might be bigger if/when this alienation comes to an end so that vendors can confidently use and see for themselves what is working and not working for them without making any prior commitment. Just my thoughts though – I’ve already proven to be a terrible businessman so read at your own risk!

  • I’ve also came across a new slogan in the HL7 workshop: SDO consolidation. They’ve mentioned about the current MoUs they have with other SDOs as blockers and want to override them and make them get out of the healthcare scene – such as X12 or ASTM. I think I’ve also heard ISO along the lines :wink: This is interesting and very conquering I think and may have some implications for openEHR in future. I personally don’t think the current clinical information representation using v3 RIM methodology will survive for long and this space looks like to be filled pretty good with SNOMED+Archetypes. Perhaps because of this I am clearly witnessing more and more ignorance and even non-promotion of SNOMED / IHTSDO in HL7 rounds :wink:

So my overall point is, if you want to convince people to adopt openEHR, you need lots of proponents who are armed with knowledge and some form of recognition, to go out and disseminate. In my talks when I introduce myself I usually use the phrase ‘openEHR fan’ rather than member because technically nobody is. I am also a ‘founding member of HL7 Turkish Affiliate’ – and in some occasions when this is announced a crowd of people surround me!

Cheers,

-koray

Hi Thomas,

I see we agreed in much of the points, I hope to see other’s visions.

Governance is a good issue to discuss with the community, but I can’t see any governance if the OpenEHR boards are distant from the community, and do not understand their real needs. What I was really talking from the begining of this discussion is that people, institutions, and goverments have needs that OpenEHR can satisfy, but at the same time, OpenEHR as a whole is not aware of their needs, or is not taking actions to do something.

There are a lots of ways of funding, just yesterday, we had an event here in Uruguay of ICT developments in healthcare (we showed our Open EHR-Gen Framework and people was amazed about the concept), there was a man called Bob Mayes from AMIA, and their are launching a subarea called GHiP to build and support communities that solve problems in healthcare informatics (with funding from Rockefeller and Bill Gates foundations, tehy have a buck or two :D). GHiP may be a good place to find some cash to build a governance program to the regional OpenEHR communities, and to support development and objective acomplishment in those communities.

The governance program must have an item on how to spend the funding, and this item must be agreed by the community.

It’d be a good idea if we create some section on the web or the wiki, where we can write some thoughs on the governance subject, also we can put some governance ideas from other communities, discuss them, and see if the community agree them. Again, without the involvement of the boards, this will be a dead-before-born subject.

Just my own experience.
I had been in talks with the National Cancer Institute, they are looking at developing some ehr system for telepathology as well has having a system that can fit conveniently (sematic interoperability) with caBIG and I talked about the openehr specification/work and gave a couple of contacts. here is the feedback and I really do not know how to answer it.

Hi All, just back from the New Zealand’s national health informatics conference – HINZ. A big thing for a small country – I must say it was as impressive as HIC and Medinfo! Related with the topic I had a chance to present our work – a full-fledged implementation of our openEHR based endoscopy application and it drew significant attention. However compared to the existence of HL7 this was miniscule. I am not going to talk why this is the case but focus on some ideas which might help us to get openEHR better adoption. I have expressed these ideas personally with some of you but here is the full list:

  • openEHR is not embracing: meaning, apart from a handful of core people fulltime employed to work on this, there is no model of ‘organic engagement’ – it is not tangible by ordinary people. And also a few others, like me, who are lucky enough to get paid to do work on openEHR from academia/research side or like Rong from a super dedicated vendor like Cambio. So how can one folk from company X can be an ‘openEHRer’ ? and why that should be compensated? Commercial organisations usually are reluctant to fund such activities if an employee is not taking some responsibility and that creates some visibility/traction.

Hello All,

It has been quite interesting following this string of discussion.

A lot of passion is coming out which indicates a mixture of frustration and hope.

But let me say OpenEHR is a wonderful idea.Yes the initial intent was future proofing but we can't wish away interoperability as a major deliverable!

As far as standards go, it is not always the best that gets wide adoption!

The key to ubiquity is reaching critical mass quickly and that depends on utility: utility in the wild, not in the research lab.

There must be some well-scoped demonstrable platform that everybody can work toward delivering-that will be supported by the community. Not just siloed implementations.

This platform will stand the best chance if it is open-sourced.Then it can be a trigger for adoption.

I don't think clinicians have time to wonder what standards are running their EHRs.They just want them to work.

As hard as HL7 seems, it has utility! Like the adage goes if you are winking in the dark, only you know it.

To overtake other standards, the openEHR community must learn from the Apache Foundation or OSGi for instance.

The route to viral adoption is open-sourcing of an implementation.

Cambio most likely may lead in this since theirs is based on Java. May Ocean should!

The other thing is the Service Model which can be used not only for testing but for serving instances of implementations.

I hope my ramble made some sense.

Dr Olusegun Odujebe
Lagos, Nigeria

Hello!
Just an idea:
The Swedish national EHR implementation is to my knowledge one of the
largest one using archetypes, and it is based in large parts on industry
components.
May this serve as a kind of "landmark" project to carry the news to others?
I hear that this runs quite well in practice?
If I remember they have a workshop in Sweden about this in January, will
this discuss possible communication activities?

Greetings from Vienna,

Stefan Sauermann

Acting Program Director
Biomedical Engineering Sciences (Master)

University of Applied Sciences Technikum Wien
Hoechstaedtplatz 5, 1200 Vienna, Austria
P: +43 1 333 40 77 - 988
M: +43 664 6192555
E: stefan.sauermann@technikum-wien.at

I: www.technikum-wien.at/mbe
I: www.healthy-interoperability.at

segunodujebe@yahoo.com schrieb:

segunodujebe@yahoo.com wrote:

The route to viral adoption is open-sourcing of an implementation.

Cambio most likely may lead in this since theirs is based on Java.
May Ocean should!

Not sure what you mean there. ADL Workbench and the Archetype Editor
have both always been open source.

http://www.openehr.org/svn/ref_impl_eiffel

http://www.openehr.org/svn/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor

- Peter

Dear all,
I have been reading this topic with lots of interest.
the example given bellow, should a great motivation to achieve efficencies in our health systems.

Cheers Carol

Dra Carola Hullin Lucay Cossio
Presidente of IMIA-LAC
PhD Health Informatics
www.imia-lac.net
+5628979701 Chile

Dear all,
I have been reading this topic with lots of interest.
the example given bellow, should a great motivation to achieve efficencies in our health systems.

Cheers Carol

Dra Carola Hullin Lucay Cossio
Presidente of IMIA-LAC
PhD Health Informatics
www.imia-lac.net
+5628979701 Chile

Dear all,
I have been reading this topic with lots of interest.
the example given bellow, should a great motivation to achieve efficencies in our health systems.

Cheers Carol

Dra Carola Hullin Lucay Cossio
Presidente of IMIA-LAC
PhD Health Informatics
www.imia-lac.net
+5628979701 Chile

Hello Peter,

The ADL is open... We have not even agreed on what kind of licence should govern it. The Editor is free software, I am not sure if it qualifies as open source.Then it is a development tool.

Like I said in tooling and platforms, OSGi and Apache Foundation are good examples. I was hoping to take the discussion from the academic to the pragmatic level.

We build archetypes as foundations.Yes. What happens if they are not deployed widely? Our dream of 'making health compute' becomes a pipe-dream!

Thank you.

Dr Olusegun Odujebe
Lagos, Nigeria

Hello Stefan,

Now that will be a pragmatic step in the right direction!

That can really be a 'reference'.

Would they be willing to open the hood?

Olusegun

segunodujebe@yahoo.com wrote:

The Editor is free software, I am not sure if it qualifies as open
source.

Yes, the Archetype Editor is definitely open source. I gave the link
to its source in my earlier reply:

http://www.openehr.org/svn/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor

- Peter

Here is a wiki page for governance discussion - http://www.openehr.org/wiki/display/oecom/Community+Governance

Bob Mayes is a great guy by the way, he worked for many years in Zimbabwe.

  • thomas
(attachments)

OceanInformaticsl.JPG

Great Thomas, I’ll put there some ideas to discuss with the community.

(attachments)

OceanInformaticsl.JPG

Hi All, yesterday I’ve written some random ideas to create an OpenEHR governance program, to help the creation and development of regional OpenEHR communities, and coordination with those communities.

It would be nice if you can take a look at the ideas and make comments about them, or add your own ideas if you note something is missing.

http://www.openehr.org/wiki/display/oecom/Community+Governance

(attachments)

OceanInformaticsl.JPG

Just to set the record straight, HL7 membership includes access to the standards IP, there are no additional access or purchase fees.

Country affiliate level participation in HL7 carries all IP benefits and for HL7 UK costs £650 +VAT for organization membership.

Having said that, I agree with Thomas’s overall point regarding needing resource to work effectively.

Regards,

Ann W.

Ann M Wrightson
Pensaer TG | Technical Architect
Gwasanaeth Gwybodeg GIG Cymru | NHS Wales Informatics Service
Symudol/Mobile: 07535 481797
Llanelwy | St Asaph: WHTN: 1815 8232 Ffôn/Tel : 01745 448232
Pencoed: WHTN: 1808 8930 Ffôn/Tel: 01656 778940