# modeling non-medical data **Category:** [Technical (archive)](https://discourse.openehr.org/c/technical-archive/156) **Created:** 2007-07-02 04:06 UTC **Views:** 2 **Replies:** 12 **URL:** https://discourse.openehr.org/t/modeling-non-medical-data/14754 --- ## Post #1 by @Andrew_Patterson I have come across an interesting opportunity to do some openehr modeling in a sports science context\. However, whilst half of the data is medical \(heart rate etc\), the other half is raw physical data \(GPS location, cadence etc\) related to in this case a bike\.\. So I would have one large history consisting of heart rate over time which can be modeled with existing archetypes\. For the other data \(the corresponding cadence over time\), I will obviously need to construct my own archetypes\. Does anyone have any experience at modeling this sort of non\-clinical data? What would I name the archetypes \- are they in the EHR namespace? Are there any composition archetypes suited to this non\-healthcare related data input? How does one decide what goes in an archetype for data that comes from a bike \(an archetype for each data item, or one archetype to group the data items together?\) \(I realise it may just be easier to store that data in a non\-openehr system but doing it the openehr way has certain attractions \- some of which are that provides a unified mechanism for all the data, and can be extended to more clinical sports science data if that becomes important\) Andrew --- ## Post #2 by @Hugh_Leslie Hi Andrew If the data is about a person i.e. their location on a bike etc, there is no reason why it can't go in the ehr space. There are a lot of potential entries in the EHR that are not directly clinical information but may be important in the overall context of the person's health or what you are trying to record about it. This is one of the reasons we have the admin entry to cope with things that are not directly clinical. regards Hugh Andrew Patterson wrote: --- ## Post #3 by @Sam Hi Andrew I was not sure what cadence is.....GPS is clearly location and could be plotted in an observation without any difficulty (might use the protocol to say how it was measured). The important thing here is the state model of the medical stuff - do you want to know the exertion level etc at the time of the heart rate - or is it a parallel measurement that will provide core data for comparison? Cheers, Sam Andrew Patterson wrote: --- ## Post #4 by @Andrew_Patterson > I was not sure what cadence is\.\.\. Cadence is the RPM for the bike wheels\. Other measures of these devices are pedal torque, speed and power \(some primary measures, some computed\) http://www.saris.com/c-11-power-meters.aspx > GPS is clearly location and could be > plotted in an observation without any difficulty \(might use the protocol to > say how it was measured\)\. I was thinking of a location observation archetype with GPS coord and altitude, and a power observation archetype with torque, power, cadence etc\. I wasn't sure whether they should be grouped like that, or completely separate \(power archetype, torque archetype, cadence archetype etc\)\. > The important thing here is the state model of the medical stuff \- do you > want to know the exertion level etc at the time of the heart rate \- or is it > a parallel measurement that will provide core data for comparison? The results are simultaneously measured by two devices \(heart rate through a chest monitor, bike power through a wheel monitor\) and recorded on a single master device on the bike, which can later be connected via usb for download\. However, some bike setups would measure all this data as two separate independent streams\. One could also theoretically add in GPS tracking etc, which is currently not done by the power measuring device \(but could be in the future\)\. The coaches want all this data to be combined in various ways \(for instance, multiplying heart rate by average power over 15 second windows etc\)\. They would want it to work irrespective of how the data got into the system\.\. so I want to write some archetypes that are flexible enough to handle the various different measurement devices and combinations of such devices\. Andrew --- ## Post #5 by @Tim_Churches Andrew Patterson wrote: >> I was not sure what cadence is\.\.\. > > Cadence is the RPM for the bike wheels\. Other measures of > these devices are pedal torque, speed and power \(some primary > measures, some computed\) No, cadence in cycling is the rotational speed \(RPM\) of the cranks/chainwheel, not the bicycle wheels i\.e\. it is how fast you are pedalling\. How fast the wheels are turning depends what gear you are in\. Of course, on a fixed\-gear, single\-speed bike \(eg a track bike\), there is a direct and fixed relationship between cadence and wheel RPM\. Tim C --- ## Post #6 by @Andrew_Patterson > No, cadence in cycling is the rotational speed \(RPM\) of the > cranks/chainwheel, not the bicycle wheels i\.e\. it is how fast you are > pedalling\. How fast the wheels are turning depends what gear you are in\. > Of course, on a fixed\-gear, single\-speed bike \(eg a track bike\), there > is a direct and fixed relationship between cadence and wheel RPM\. ok :\-\)\. I'm sure my cycling friends will yell at me for getting this wrong as well \- in my defence, I haven't been on a bike for more than 15 years so my interpretation of the terminology is obviously suspect\.\. I'm sure I will learn a lot more by watching 'le tour' this year\. Andrew --- ## Post #7 by @Sam I would suggest one archetype for the cycling activity - in future this might be best done with specialisations - but for the moment it would be best to put in the data as it is sampled. If the sampling frame is different then the same archetype can still be used. Cheers, Sam Andrew Patterson wrote: --- ## Post #8 by @Arild_Faxvaag1 But the purpose then would not be to collect data for healthcare purposes \- i\.e\. this post is about the use of open EHR standards and technologies for to answer a scientific question? Arild Faxvaag --- ## Post #9 by @Andrew_Patterson > But the purpose then would not be to collect data for healthcare > purposes \- i\.e\. this post is about the use of open EHR standards and > technologies for to answer a scientific question? Well, this is dilemna I guess \- it's data about a person, created from a physical activity \- but it's not a clinical observation\. It is being used for healthcare purposes, albeit with very specialised goals \- the data is used to set safe training exertion ranges etc for the atheletes\. I may end up doing it with an ad\-hoc system \- I just thought it would be interesting to consider how it might be done using openehr\. Andrew --- ## Post #10 by @Dipak_Kalra Dear Andrew, Our team at CHIME are part of a UK Science Council funded project to develop innovative ways of assisting coaches with athlete training. [http://www.sesame.ucl.ac.uk](http://www.sesame.ucl.ac.uk)/ A part of our methodology is to build a centralised repository with an athlete training record and cumulative monitoring data. Some aspects of the overall data architecture are now becoming clear, others are still to be investigated (e.g. to optimise retrieval/analysis performance for high-volume data). The core athlete training record will utilise a simplified 13606/openEHR server architecture and a corresponding simplified archetype library, accessed via a web portal. Because some of our early domain-specific materials have come from coaches who, naturally, regard their expertise as somewhat personal and private, we do not yet have permission to share the domain modelling (archetyping) work that we are doing, but I am hopeful that as the months progress we will find sufficient generic models that are not coach-specific that we can publish and share these. With best wishes, Dipak --- ## Post #11 by @heather.leslie I think it is wrong to be too 'pure' about what constitutes health information\. In this situation a heart rate archetype can be specialized for this very specific purpose, and the cadence etc is important part of the context of the observation, being part of a very detailed record relating to exertion, and should be recorded in their health record as state data\. I don't see any particular problem with GPS being recorded here as well if it fulfils a specific need\. This particular specialization may not end up having international status if not broadly used, but consider that it may be used in all personal health records used by elite cyclists\. The ideal is to make archetypes as broadly used as possible to facilitate interoperability, but if they need to be develope for a specific or one\-off purpose, or for use within just one healthcare facility, then that is still a valid use of archetypes albeit at the cost of some 'shareability'\. Heather --- ## Post #12 by @thomas.beale Andrew, I will just point out a very basic fact in openEHR: the idea is not that the current RM will do everything for the future; indeed, the RM will slowly be added to with new data types and other useful primitive structures etc to allow proper representation of 'recorded information about a subject' \(which is the scope of openEHR\)\. I can well imagine adding a 3 or 4 coordinate data type to represent GPS position\. If what you want to record is no longer even 'recorded information about a subject' \- e\.g\. aircraft body parts, then you need a different base reference model, and you can archetype that\.\.\.\. \- thomas Andrew Patterson wrote: --- ## Post #13 by @gordon.tomes Think about it as an opportunity. Sports Medicine is a very data rich environment. This provides a very good testing ground for archetypes. Gordon Tomes Acute Care Division Department of Health and Ageing (MDP 63) PO Box 9848, Canberra ACT 2601 Ph 02 6289 5081 | Mobile 0423 024 922 | Fax 02 6289 7630 **"Heather Leslie" <heather.leslie@oceaninformatics.biz>** Sent by: openehr-technical-bounces@openehr.org 02/07/2007 08:04 PM
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| > - | - | `I think it is wrong to be too 'pure' about what constitutes health` `information. In this situation a heart rate archetype can be specialized` `for this very specific purpose, and the cadence etc is important part of the` `context of the observation, being part of a very detailed record relating to` `exertion, and should be recorded in their health record as state data. I` `don't see any particular problem with GPS being recorded here as well if it` `fulfils a specific need.` `This particular specialization may not end up having international status if` `not broadly used, but consider that it may be used in all personal health` `records used by elite cyclists.` `The ideal is to make archetypes as broadly used as possible to facilitate` `interoperability, but if they need to be develope for a specific or one-off` `purpose, or for use within just one healthcare facility, then that is still` `a valid use of archetypes albeit at the cost of some 'shareability'.` `Heather` `_______________________________________________` `Dr Heather Leslie` `Director, Senior Clinical Consultant` `Ocean Informatics Pty Ltd` `M +61 418 966 670 (in Australia)` `M +44 7722 064 546 (in UK)` `Skype - heather.leslie.oi` `>-----Original Message-----` `>From: openehr-technical-bounces@openehr.org [mailto:openehr-technical-` `>bounces@openehr.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Patterson` `>Sent: Monday, 2 July 2007 7:31 PM` `>To: For openEHR technical discussions` `>Subject: Re: modeling non-medical data` `>` `>> But the purpose then would not be to collect data for healthcare` `>> purposes - i.e. this post is about the use of open EHR standards and` `>> technologies for to answer a scientific question?` `>` `>Well, this is dilemna I guess - it's data about a person, created` `>from a physical activity - but it's not a clinical observation. It` `>is being used for healthcare purposes, albeit with very` `>specialised goals - the data is used to set safe training exertion` `>ranges etc for the atheletes.` `>` `>I may end up doing it with an ad-hoc system - I just thought it` `>would be interesting to consider how it might be done using` `>openehr.` `>` `>Andrew` `>_______________________________________________` `>openEHR-technical mailing list` `>openEHR-technical@openehr.org` `>http://lists.chime.ucl.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical` `>` `>__________ NOD32 2368 (20070701) Information __________` `>` `>This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.` `>http://www.eset.com` `_______________________________________________` `openEHR-technical mailing list` `openEHR-technical@openehr.org` `http://lists.chime.ucl.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical` --- **Canonical:** https://discourse.openehr.org/t/modeling-non-medical-data/14754 **Original content:** https://discourse.openehr.org/t/modeling-non-medical-data/14754