# demographic archetypes **Category:** [Clinical (archive)](https://discourse.openehr.org/c/clinical-archive/153) **Created:** 2007-11-01 14:39 UTC **Views:** 1 **Replies:** 39 **URL:** https://discourse.openehr.org/t/demographic-archetypes/14690 --- ## Post #1 by @system Hi all, Which archetypes are best to use for demographic\-purposes\. I found the ones in knowledge/archetypes/dev/adl/openehr/demographic but they seem uncomplete to me\. I found an archetypeslot to openehr\-list\_s\.person\_name\.\*, but then I cannot find that archetype\. SO what can I do best, to build demographic datacollection? Thanks Bert --- ## Post #2 by @system Hi Bert Ian McNicholl has developed a number for the NHS for use in clinical records (rather than demographic systems). It is probably worth drawing your attention to these and how they are used in templates. I would be interested in getting these into the openEHR space. Cheers, Sam Bert Verhees wrote: [details="(attachments)"] ![OceanC\_small.png|74x72](upload://5I367QG2SMJUp18Pt3jF6yz13Ey.png) [/details] --- ## Post #3 by @system Sam Heard schreef: > Hi Bert > > Ian McNicholl has developed a number for the NHS for use in clinical > records \(rather than demographic systems\)\. It is probably worth > drawing your attention to these and how they are used in templates\. I > would be interested in getting these into the openEHR space\. Thanks Sam, Dear Ian I am very interested in these demographic archetypes, can you please send them to me\. I will, if possible, make them fit for the Netherlands, and eventually \(if there are no objections from the community\) post them to the OpenEhrspace regards Bert Verhees --- ## Post #4 by @ian.mcnicoll Just for info. The design for these archetypes came from the Scottish NHS XMl messaging standard (we do not use HL7 as they do in England). The schema for these is at [http://www.isdscotland.org/isd/files/general-v2-7.xsd](http://www.isdscotland.org/isd/files/general-v2-7.xsd) NHS Scotland Interoperability Working Group [http://www.isdscotland.org/isd/5194.htm](http://www.isdscotland.org/isd/5194.htm) originally based on: Personal name of the person. ENV 13606 - 4:2000 7.11.12 Ian [details="(attachments)"] ![OceanC\_small.png|74x72](upload://5I367QG2SMJUp18Pt3jF6yz13Ey.png) [/details] --- ## Post #5 by @ian.mcnicoll Currently at [http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.person_address.v1draft.adl](http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.person_address.v1draft.adl) [http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.person_demographics.v1draft.adl](http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.person_demographics.v1draft.adl) [http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.person_name.v1draft.adl](http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.person_name.v1draft.adl) [http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.person_telecoms.v1draft.adl](http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.person_telecoms.v1draft.adl) [http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.professional_role.v1draft.adl](http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.professional_role.v1draft.adl) [http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.care_professional.v1.adl](http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.care_professional.v1.adl) [http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.address.v1draft.adl](http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.address.v1draft.adl) [http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.organisation.v2draft.adl](http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.organisation.v2draft.adl) [http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.individual_personal.v1draft.adl](http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.individual_personal.v1draft.adl) [http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.individual_professional.v1draft.adl](http://svn.openehr.org/knowledge/archetypes/dev-uk-nhs/adl/openehr/ehr/cluster/openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.individual_professional.v1draft.adl) Ian --- ## Post #6 by @system Thanks very much, Ian, now we have something, quite much to study Bert Ian McNicoll schreef: --- ## Post #7 by @system Please excuse me for coming back to this, almost a year later. Again I am on the point where I want to maintain code for the EHR-structure. Still I have the same questions..... The point is, I can hardly find archetypes based on this, but I find more archetypes based on more generic data-structures like CLUSTER, like the nhs-archetypes, listed below, URL has changed since, but they still exist. But there are almost no archetypes published based on the Demographic subtree of the RM-model. Thomas Beale schreef: > ``` > > Another question, how do people from the NHS, who built many many > > archetypes, but none on demographic base construct their EHR's? > > > in the NHS so far there is no real EHR, only something called PSIS aka > the 'Spine' (see > [http://www.connectingforhealth.nhs.uk/resources/systserv/spine-factsheet](http://www.connectingforhealth.nhs.uk/resources/systserv/spine-factsheet)). > > This has only a very basic architecture at the moment. They have not > really decided on an EHR architecture yet. > > ``` That is OK, then, we are not to use the NHS archetypes, I understand. Thomas Beale schreef: > ``` > > Does that mean that the demographic classes in the Reference Model > > will > > go the same way? > > > Hi Bert, > > on the contrary, demographic archetypes and demographic a archetype > editor capability will have increased development around them in 2008. > > ``` The latest version of the Archetype-editor from Ocean (may, 2008) does still no support this kind of archetypes. Again, what is the future of the Demographic part of the RM-model? Still there are not many examples (almost none) and no software-tooling-support. What are the reasons for this? Thomas Beale schreef: > ``` > > Now my question, how can we facilitate an EHR-construction, as > > described > > in the documentation, using the available archetype-editors? > > > can you be more precise about what you mean here - building an EHR > itself is not the business of an archetype editor.... > > ``` I don't understand this. In my opinion, an EHR is build up in datastructures which are defined by archetypes, some of them are of based on Demographic. Thus, it is not possible to construct an EHR, using the archetype-editors as available. (It is no problem, one can always build an archetype in vi, and test it afterwards.) I just want to know what I misunderstand. Thomas Beale schreef: > ``` > > Or is it more or less that that we are to use the Party-ref as an > > Object-ref, and do not take the specifications to literally? (because, > > they, f.e. will be updated in the future) > > > can you be more precise here? > > ``` This was more or less a joke, an EHR-Status contains a Party-Ref. If the demographic would disappear, (or like NHS, are not used) it is not possible to create an EHR according to the specs. But as I said, this was more or less a joke. Nevertheless, the practical issues around the demographic puzzle me still. So I have two questions - Is there a repository in which (example) demographic archetypes are? - When will the Ocean Archetype-editor start supporting demographic archetypes? Thanks, Bert Ian McNicoll schreef (19-nov-2007): --- ## Post #8 by @Sergio_M_Freire Hi Bert, We designed some archetypes based on openehr demographic rm, and taking into account ISO/WD 22220 (Identification of subjects of health care), ISO WD for Provider Identification and our knowledge of how Brazilian health system works. I will send them to you in a separate e-mail. Note that they are still a draft and are in Portuguese. Eventually I may translate them to English, but in the meantime feel free to ask any questions and use them as you wish. I will also send a copy to Thomas Beale so that openEHR Foundation may use them as it sees fit. Cheers, Sergio --- ## Post #9 by @system Sergio Miranda Freire schreef: > Hi Bert, > > We designed some archetypes based on openehr demographic rm, and taking into account ISO/WD 22220 (Identification of subjects of health care), ISO WD for Provider Identification and our knowledge of how Brazilian health system works. I will send them to you in a separate e-mail. Note that they are still a draft and are in Portuguese. Eventually I may translate them to English, but in the meantime feel free to ask any questions and use them as you wish. I will also send a copy to Thomas Beale so that openEHR Foundation may use them as it sees fit. Thank you very much, Serfio, I'll study them tomorrow. I think, I can translate most of ot to English and Dutch without much problems. reggards Bert --- ## Post #10 by @Tim_Cook2 \(CC'd to the implementers list\) Sergio, I also want to say thanks for sharing these archetypes\. I am not an archetype expert but there is something about these that confuse me\. \(as Sergio and I have discussed a bit\)\. Maybe someone can UN\-CONFUSE me? In the simple email address one pasted below \(definition only for brevity\)\. In the definition section the ADDRESS class is shown to have an attribute of 'details' \(correct according to the RM\)\. However, 'details' is supposed to be of type ITEM\_STRUCTURE \(so therefore it should be an ITEM\_LIST???\)\. As well, the ELEMENT should have as its contents a descendant of DATA\_VALUE\. CODED\_TEXT is not; nor is CODED\_TEXT a class within the AM or RM\. So are these archetypes syntactically correct \(checked in the ADL Workbench\) but just not valid with the openEHR information model? OR\! am I missing something? \-\-Tim archetype \(adl\_version=1\.4\)   br\-demographic\-ADDRESS\.email\.v1 \.\.\. definition   ADDRESS\[at0000\] matches \{ \-\- correio eletrônico     details matches \{       LIST\[at0001\] matches \{ \-\- Itens do e\-mail         items cardinality matches \{1\.\.\*; ordered\} matches \{           ELEMENT\[at0002\] occurrences matches \{0\.\.1\} matches \{ \-\- Tipo de correio eletrônico             value matches \{               CODED\_TEXT matches \{                 code matches \{                   \[local::                   at0003, \-\- pessoal                   at0004\] \-\- comercial                 \}               \}             \}           \}           ELEMENT\[at0005\] occurrences matches \{1\} matches \{ \-\- correio eletrônico             value matches \{               DV\_TEXT matches \{\*\}             \}           \}         \}       \}     \}   \} --- ## Post #11 by @Sergio_M_Freire Hi Tim, If you open ocean archetype editor, or liu ae, start a new clinical archetype, add a list of elements \(two of them being a text and a coded text, respectively\), and check the adl for it, you will see ITEM\_LIST, DV\_TEXT, and DV\_CODED\_TEXT, as you would expect\. So why the types TEXT and CODED\_TEXT that appear in many archetypes, including the famous blood pressure archetype, and LIST that is in openehr\-demographic\-address\.location\_address\.draft\.adl ? I do not have an answer for that, I only may make some guesses\. Maybe they are reminiscents of previous versions of editors and openEHR rm, I don't know\. I guess that if you were to deserialize an adl file into objects from the AOM, whenever you find a TEXT you would have to set the rm\_type\_name attribute from the corresponding C\_OBJECT object to DV\_TEXT, and do similar things when you find CODED\_TEXT or LIST\. I hope that someone can clarify these matters\. Finally, when we started editing the demographic archetypes, we used a text editor, since we don't have editors for demograhic archetypes yet\. And we used openehr\-demographic\-address\.location\_address\.draft\.adl as our starting point\. That's why you will see LIST, TEXT, and CODED\_TEXT in many of them\. Now I think we need some guidelines on how to proceed\. Are these terms deprecated or something like that? Regards, Sergio \-\-\-\-\-Mensagem original\-\-\-\-\- --- ## Post #12 by @system > Hi Tim, > > If you open ocean archetype editor, or liu ae, start a new clinical archetype, add a list of elements (two of them being a text and a coded text, respectively), and check the adl for it, you will see ITEM_LIST, DV_TEXT, and DV_CODED_TEXT, as you would expect. > So why the types TEXT and CODED_TEXT that appear in many archetypes, including the famous blood pressure archetype, and LIST that is in openehr-demographic-address.location_address.draft.adl ? > > I do not have an answer for that, I only may make some guesses. Maybe they are reminiscents of previous versions of editors and openEHR rm, I don't know. I guess that if you were to deserialize an adl file into objects from the AOM, whenever you find a TEXT you would have to set the rm_type_name attribute from the corresponding C_OBJECT object to DV_TEXT, and do similar things when you find CODED_TEXT or LIST. I hope that someone can clarify these matters. Yes, these are indeed relics from old model and tools. The correct types are ITEM_LIST and DV_TEXT according to the latest RM specification (Release 1.0.1). I suspect that some tools still support incorrect (shortened names) for backwards compatibility when the archetypes are opened, but the correct types should be used when the archetypes are serialized from the editor. /Rong --- ## Post #13 by @Tim_Cook2 Hi Sergio, Thanks for your explanation\. > Yes, these are indeed relics from old model and tools\. The correct > types are ITEM\_LIST and DV\_TEXT according to the latest RM > specification \(Release 1\.0\.1\)\. I suspect that some tools still support > incorrect \(shortened names\) for backwards compatibility when the > archetypes are opened, but the correct types should be used when the > archetypes are serialized from the editor\. Thanks for this clarification Rong\. I suppose the tools should at least through a deprecation warning in these cases instead of apparently validating the ADL\. Though this isn't really the total solution \(AFAIK\) since ADL can be syntactically correct against any reference model\. Since I am not intimately familiar with any of the archetype building/validating tools\. Do they provide a selection as to the RM that the archetype is supposed to be valid against? Let's say openEHR or EN13606? I'm doing a new checkout of the knowledge base so I can include them on a CD we're distributing at the workshop next weekend\. I'm going to search across the existing adl files and see how many instances of "CODED\_TEXT" and "LIST" I find\. AFAIK the CRB hasn't actually certified any archetypes yet so this isn't a big issue at this point\. But, as openEHR becomes more widely known and used \.\.\.\. ???? I wonder if the new CRB Chair has a plan to address this? I have CC'd Tony in case he isn't on the implementers list\. \-\-Tim --- ## Post #14 by @system > Hi Sergio, > > Thanks for your explanation. > > > > > > Yes, these are indeed relics from old model and tools. The correct > > types are ITEM_LIST and DV_TEXT according to the latest RM > > specification (Release 1.0.1). I suspect that some tools still support > > incorrect (shortened names) for backwards compatibility when the > > archetypes are opened, but the correct types should be used when the > > archetypes are serialized from the editor. > > Thanks for this clarification Rong. > > I suppose the tools should at least through a deprecation warning in > these cases instead of apparently validating the ADL. Though this isn't > really the total solution (AFAIK) since ADL can be syntactically correct > against any reference model. > > Since I am not intimately familiar with any of the archetype > building/validating tools. Do they provide a selection as to the RM that > the archetype is supposed to be valid against? Let's say openEHR or > EN13606? Hi Tim, Syntactically valid archetypes in ADL need to be further validated against a specific RM. For existing archetypes, the tools usually pick up the model from the archetype ID and can use the indicated RM for validation. For creating a new archetype, an archetype editor should normally ask for the RM to be used as the very first step. Cheers, Rong --- ## Post #15 by @Heath_Frankel3 Hi Sergio and Tim, Yes, these archetypes are old and should reflect the RM exactly\. Ocean has been developing some demographic archetypes to be used in a non\-health application and have used the Ocean Archetype Editor to do this\. Instead of using a PARTY class we have used an ADMIN\_ENTRY and instead of a ITEM\_TREE/ITEM\_LIST we have used a CLUSTER\. These can then be converted into the demographic RM simply by manually changing the Archetype root class \(ADMIN\_ENTRY/CLUSTER\) to the demographic model equivalent \(PARTY/ITEM\_xxx\)\. This manually modified archetype cannot be loaded back into the Archetype Editor but could be now maintained manually and validated in the Archetype Workbench\. This work around is obviously hard work and there is an obvious need for Demographic RM support in the Archetype Editors\. The Ocean Archetype Editor is open source, so if anyone would like to make a contribution to provide this support then please do not hesitate to contact me\. Regards Heath Heath Frankel Product Development Manager Ocean Informatics email: heath\.frankel@oceaninformatics\.com --- ## Post #16 by @system Hi Tim It sounds as though these are based on short hand labels. Sergio, you need to ensure that the classes are in the RM (ITEM_LIST, DV_CODED_TEXT) Cheers, Sam Tim Cook wrote: [details="(attachments)"] ![OceanInformaticsl.JPG|183x82](upload://2lcnRHcC3QqDv6AeaDZuo8M9Qlv.jpeg) [/details] --- ## Post #17 by @system Heath Frankel schreef: > Hi Sergio and Tim, > Yes, these archetypes are old and should reflect the RM exactly\. Ocean has been developing some demographic archetypes to be used in a non\-health application and have used the Ocean Archetype Editor to do this\. Instead of using a PARTY class we have used an ADMIN\_ENTRY and instead of a ITEM\_TREE/ITEM\_LIST we have used a CLUSTER\. These can then be converted into the demographic RM simply by manually changing the Archetype root class \(ADMIN\_ENTRY/CLUSTER\) to the demographic model equivalent \(PARTY/ITEM\_xxx\)\. This manually modified archetype cannot be loaded back into the Archetype Editor but could be now maintained manually and validated in the Archetype Workbench\. > > This work around is obviously hard work and there is an obvious need for Demographic RM support in the Archetype Editors\. The Ocean Archetype Editor is open source, so if anyone would like to make a contribution to provide this support then please do not hesitate to contact me\. >   Thank you for this workaround, it is a bit tricky, manually, without software\-support rebuilding archetypes, but the good news is that we have some check\-tools, like the ADL\-workbench and the parser\-code in java So we need to use "vi" or "notepad" to create demographic archetypes, and that won't change in short time\. Maybe a "vim"\-template for syntax\-coloring could help\. Or Eclipse\-archetype\-editor with automatic suggest/completion function\. I think these are things that will come, maybe I will create some of them myself\. And maybe I will change the Archetype\-editor also, but first I need a computer to run Windows and Visa Studio to do so\. Or maybe it is compilable in mono? Later, when I am less busy, and finished my openehr\-application/kernel\. It is a strange thing, with the demographics\-archetypes, and I would hope to see an explanation why that is\. The ocean\-editor does not support them The Liu/java editor does not support them The NHS does not use them \(but use generic archetypes for demographic information\) There are hardly any examples, maybe two or three, which aren't even complete\. Even in EhrView, it is not possible to view the XML of demographic entries \(and so is the archetype\-structure hidden\)\. I wonder why that is, can someone explain that? It can't be that they are too complicated, because other locatable constructions can be complicated to\. Which mysterious reason is behind this\. Thanks Bert --- ## Post #18 by @yampeku If you are able to define an XML Schema for the OpenEHR demographic model \(I couldn't find it on the web\) then LinkEHR\-ed Archetype Editor could help you to make those archetypes --- ## Post #19 by @Heath_Frankel3 Bert, > From Ocean's perspective, it is simply a matter of priorities\. There are many existing identity management systems that are deployed and work, some even have trait based mechanisms similar to Archetypes\. We have concentrated our development effort in the EHR RM area as this is where openEHR brings something new and major benefits over existing EHR data models\. If we had endless resources we would do Demographics as well\. Heath --- ## Post #20 by @system Heath Frankel schreef: > Bert, > From Ocean's perspective, it is simply a matter of priorities\. There are many existing identity management systems that are deployed and work, some even have trait based mechanisms similar to Archetypes\. We have concentrated our development effort in the EHR RM area as this is where openEHR brings something new and major benefits over existing EHR data models\. If we had endless resources we would do Demographics as well\. >   Maybe it is a good idea if we \(community\) can do it\. The demographics are in the specs defined as a necessary part of an EHR, and I think many people will welcome an archetype\-editor which is capable of doing demographics also\. It is a good signal to the world outside the community to have this\. I wrote you an email separate, for some advise, it would be great if I \(and other developers\) get support \(if possible\) to help to save time on understanding the complexity of the current code\-base for the archetype editor\. For, example, documentation, code\-scheme's, easy\-startup understanding, needed libraries, etc\. Nothing is so frustrating as working a week on something and then discovering that something essential is missing, or searching for days for something that is just in another location\. Thanks Bert --- ## Post #21 by @mikael Bert Verhees wrote: Hi Bert, > It is a strange thing, with the demographics\-archetypes, and I would > hope to see an explanation why that is\. > \[\.\.\.\] > The Liu/java editor does not support them > \[\.\.\.\] The reason why the LiU Archetype Editor not support demographic archetypes is simply lack of time for our implementer\. But we are currently working with a new version of the archetype editor, so it may change in the future\.   Regards,   Mikael --- ## Post #22 by @system Mikael Nyström schreef: > ``` > Bert Verhees wrote: > > Hi Bert, > > > ``` > > > ``` > > It is a strange thing, with the demographics-archetypes, and I would > > hope to see an explanation why that is. > > [...] > > The Liu/java editor does not support them > > [...] > > > > ``` > > ``` > > The reason why the LiU Archetype Editor not support demographic archetypes > is simply lack of time for our implementer. But we are currently working > with a new version of the archetype editor, so it may change in the future. > > Regards, > Mikael > > ``` Thanks, I tried to look at it myself, but I do not have much experience with the GUI-Java-classes that are used, it was too big for me to get this started as something to do extra. So, good news it will be updated. Thanks Bert --- ## Post #23 by @system Bert Verhees schreef: > ``` > Heath Frankel schreef: > > ``` > > > ``` > > Bert, > > >From Ocean's perspective, it is simply a matter of priorities. There are many existing identity management systems that are deployed and work, some even have trait based mechanisms similar to Archetypes. We have concentrated our development effort in the EHR RM area as this is where openEHR brings something new and major benefits over existing EHR data models. If we had endless resources we would do Demographics as well. > > > > > > ``` > > ``` > Maybe it is a good idea if we (community) can do it. The demographics > are in the specs defined as a necessary part of an EHR, and I think many > people will welcome an archetype-editor which is capable of doing > demographics also. It is a good signal to the world outside the > community to have this. > > I wrote you an email separate, for some advise, it would be great if I > (and other developers) get support (if possible) to help to save time on > understanding the complexity of the current code-base for the archetype > editor. For, example, documentation, code-scheme's, easy-startup > understanding, needed libraries, etc. > Nothing is so frustrating as working a week on something and then > discovering that something essential is missing, or searching for days > for something that is just in another location. > > ``` The archetype-editor compiles in mono, without errors many files, maybe all vb and resource-files. Except for one, a file missing-error and a file missing-warning. I printed below the compiler output. I think, in this way, it is easier to help me for the people involved in this project. I skipped a lot of the compiler output (all files in the same directories compiled without error) Thanks Bert Bezig met hoofdcompilatie... vbnc -out:"/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/bin/ArchetypeEditor.exe" -nologo -utf8output -win32icon:"/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/ocean-transparent.ico" -rootnamespace:"ArchetypeEditor" -define:"PaintBoundary=false" -imports:Microsoft.VisualBasic,System,System.Collections,System.Data,System.Diagnostics,System.Drawing,System.Windows.Forms -target:winexe -r:EiffelSoftware.Runtime, Version=6.0.6.9104, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=def26f296efef469 -r:MagicLibrary, Version=1.7.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=3a6eb82f876a49bc -r:OceanInformatics.AdlParser, Version=0.0.0.624, Culture=neutral, processorArchitecture=x86 -r:/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/OTS/OTSControls.dll -r:/usr/lib/mono/2.0/System.dll -r:/usr/lib/mono/2.0/System.Data.dll -r:/usr/lib/mono/2.0/System.Design.dll -r:/usr/lib/mono/2.0/System.Drawing.dll -r:/usr/lib/mono/2.0/System.EnterpriseServices.dll -r:/usr/lib/mono/2.0/System.Web.Services.dll -r:/usr/lib/mono/2.0/System.Windows.Forms.dll -r:/usr/lib/mono/2.0/System.Xml.dll "-resource:/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/DataConstraints/GUI/IdentifierConstraintControl.resources,ArchetypeEditor.IdentifierConstraintControl.resources" ............................................ "-resource:/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/Terminology/openEHR_Translation.exe,ArchetypeEditor.openEHR_Translation.exe" "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/ADL_Classes/ADL_Archetype.vb" ........................................... "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/ADL_Classes/ADL_TranslationDetails.vb" ........................................... "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/BusinessLogic/Duration.vb" "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/ADL_Classes/ADL_RmElement.vb" "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/AssemblyInfo.vb" "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/BusinessLogic/Archetype.vb" ........................................... "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/BusinessLogic/EHR_Classes/RmParticipation.vb" "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/DataConstraintsView/ArchetypeView.vb" ........................................... "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/DataConstraints/UriConstraint.vb" "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/Forms/ApplicationOptionsForm.vb" ........................................... "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/GUI_Classes/Structure_Controls/TreeStructure.vb" "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/My Project/Application.Designer.vb" "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/My Project/Resources.Designer.vb" "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/My Project/Settings.Designer.vb" "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/OceanArchetypeEditor.vb" ........................................... "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/TabPage_Controls/TermBindingPanel.vb" "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/TimeUnits.vb" "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/Web References/ArchetypeFinderWebServiceURL/Reference.vb" "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/XML_Classes/XML_RmElement.vb" "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/XML_Classes/XML_Term.vb" ........................................... "/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/XML_Classes/XML_TranslationDetails.vb" "-resource:/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/DataConstraintsView/BooleanViewControl.resources,ArchetypeEditor.BooleanViewControl.resources" ........................................... "-resource:/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/DataConstraints/OrdinalTable.resources,ArchetypeEditor.OrdinalTable.resources" "-resource:/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/Forms/ApplicationOptionsForm.resources,ArchetypeEditor.ApplicationOptionsForm.resources" ........................................... "-resource:/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/Forms/WebSearchForm.resources,ArchetypeEditor.WebSearchForm.resources" "-resource:/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/GUI_Classes/Instruction_Controls/PathwayEvent.resources,ArchetypeEditor.PathwayEvent.resources" ........................................... "-resource:/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/GUI_Classes/Structure_Controls/TreeStructure.resources,ArchetypeEditor.TreeStructure.resources" "-resource:/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/My Project/Resources.resources,ArchetypeEditor.Resources.resources" "-resource:/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/TabPage_Controls/TabPageAction.resources,ArchetypeEditor.TabPageAction.resources" ........................................... "-resource:/home/verhees/OpenEhr/knowledge_tools_dotnet/TRUNK/ArchetypeEditor/TabPage_Controls/TermBindingPanel.resources,ArchetypeEditor.TermBindingPanel.resources" Error : VBNC2001: file not found: Version=6.0.6.9104, Error : VBNC2001: file not found: Culture=neutral, Error : VBNC2001: file not found: PublicKeyToken=def26f296efef469 Error : VBNC2001: file not found: Version=1.7.0.0, Error : VBNC2001: file not found: Culture=neutral, Error : VBNC2001: file not found: PublicKeyToken=3a6eb82f876a49bc Error : VBNC2001: file not found: Version=0.0.0.624, Error : VBNC2001: file not found: Culture=neutral, Error : VBNC2001: file not found: processorArchitecture=x86 [Task:File=, Line=0, Column=0, Type=Warning, Priority=Normal, Description=Het gerefereerde project 'XMLParser' kon niet worden gevonden in de oplossing.] --- ## Post #24 by @system >> >> I wrote you an email separate, for some advise, it would be great if I >> \(and other developers\) get support \(if possible\) to help to save time on >> understanding the complexity of the current code\-base for the archetype >> editor\. For, example, documentation, code\-scheme's, easy\-startup >> understanding, needed libraries, etc\. >> Nothing is so frustrating as working a week on something and then >> discovering that something essential is missing, or searching for days >> for something that is just in another location\. >>   > > The archetype\-editor compiles in mono, without errors many files, > maybe all vb and resource\-files\. > Except for one, a file missing\-error and a file missing\-warning\. I switched to the BRANCHES tree\. All the assemblies are there, but the errors still occur\. I don't know what it means --- ## Post #25 by @Peter_Gummer1 Bert Verhees wrote: > So we need to use "vi" or "notepad" to create demographic archetypes, > and that won't change in short time\. Maybe a "vim"\-template for > syntax\-coloring could help\. There is already a vim template for ADL\. It's installed with ADL Workbench, or you can download it directly from: http://www.openehr.org/wsvn/ref_impl_eiffel/TRUNK/apps/adl_workbench/etc/vim/?rev=0&sc=0 \- Peter --- ## Post #26 by @Stef_Verlinden1 Hi Heath, --- ## Post #27 by @Heath_Frankel3 Stef, I am referring to Enterprise Person Master Index (EMPI) systems, in particular those that implement or base their implementation on the OMG Person Identity Service (PIDS) specification, which is the trait-based approach I referred to. IHE also has profiles for Person Identification (PIX) and Person Demographics (PDQ). Most of these are flexible about the information that they maintain about a person and the information used to identify a person. Some examples include Sun eIndex and Initiate System. There is even an Eclipse Open Healthcare Framework implementation of the PIX and PDQ IHE profiles. Heath --- ## Post #28 by @Daniel_Karlsson Dear Everyone, I'm currently working on demographic archetypes for a Swedish national project\. Who has got experience from working with such archetypes? As I understand things, there is limited tool support for demographics\. Is this correct? Regards, Daniel --- ## Post #29 by @Stef_Verlinden1 Hi Daniel, You migth want to have a look at the technical list, where this subject was discussed recently\. --- ## Post #30 by @Heath_Frankel3 Hi Daniel, This is a bit hack but is a potential work around for the lack of tooling support for demographics archetypes based on an approach I have been using where I am looking to store demographics within an EHR model\. You can model your demographics archetypes in the Archetype Editor using CLUSTER archetypes, then change the root type name and archetyped data structure attribute name and type name to the appropriate demographic model values\. For example an address archetype would have a root type name of CLUSTER and attribute of items of type CLUSTER\. This could be changed to have a root type name of ADDRESS and attribute of details of type ITEM\_TREE\. It should be possible to write a transformation between these CLUSTER and demographic type archetypes so that they can be converted in and out of the CLUSTER archetype file that can be used with the Archetype Editor\. This is probably most easiest done using XML archetypes\. Ultimately it would be best to provide demographic archetype support within the Archetype Editor but this would require either funded or volunteer resources to be made available\. Regards Heath --- ## Post #31 by @Heath_Frankel3 Hi Daniel, I have looked into this a bit more and while I have been successful in producing a PERSON and ADDRESS archetype using my suggested approach, the transform for the PERSON archetype will be more complicated than I expected\. Further investigation will need to be done\. Regards Heath --- ## Post #32 by @system >> Ultimately it would be best to provide demographic archetype support within >> the Archetype Editor but this would require either funded or volunteer >> resources to be made available\. >>     I could do that, be still mono has a problem loading/compiling the project, and I don't have a Windows\-development machine\. \(don't like to have one either\)\. So I wait until mono is improved regarding to this problem, or maybe, some else already did it\. BTW, I wonder how ocean creates demographic archetypes, manually? It is possible to do\. I guess, creating a collection of demographic archetypes is as much work as adding the feature to the archetype\-editor\. Bert --- ## Post #33 by @Sergio_M_Freire Hi, > Hi Daniel, > > You migth want to have a look at the technical list, where this > subject was discussed recently\. > > \-\-\-\-\-\-\- > The most useful demographic archetypes available will be Sergio > Freire's from Brazil \- they are based on ISO 22220, and he has about > 20 of them\. He is just reworking some of the details, and said to me > while I was there recently that he will translate them into English > \(using teh ISO 22220 names\) and then make them available\. I would > expect this set to become the base set for openEHR\. They are easy to > build plug\-in specialised archetypes for that contain e\.g\. braziliann > address, japanese address, etc \- the bits that vary\. > > \- thomas beale > \-\-\-\-\-\-\- As an update to this message, I have translated those archetypes to English and have sent them to the openEHR Foundation\. While they are not available through the foundation, I can provide the set to you\. The first time I made them available was on September, 2008\. Since then we updated the archetypes to the newest version of ISO 22220 \(it is not published yet\), 'refactored' some of them to make them more 'internationalised', and made them follow the latest version of openEHR RM\. We used not only ISO 22220, but also ISO provider identification standard and our own experience\. Of course, any feedback on them is very welcome\. > Question is: is the review process for > \(demographic\) archetypes within openEHR sufficiently up and running > and is the openEHR review board willing to coordinate this? If yes how > should we go about from here? > This is also my question\. > As far as tooling concerns\. Sergio's archetype can at least be opened > in the OI workbench\. For the creation one has to be a bit more > 'creative'\. This easiest way is to make them by hand \(just type them > in a texteditor and change the extension of the saved file to \.adl > works for me\. One can start with Sergio's AT as an example\)\. > Maybe we should even be bothered by the technical aspects\. Let's just > write down the requirements\. I'm sure there are some technical people > out there who are willing to make a valid AT out of that\. Once the > requirements are defined properly it's not a lot of work\. > We have been using a text editor to create most of those archetypes and the ocean archetype editor to create those based on CLUSTER or any subclass of ITEM\_STRUCTURE\. However I also agree with Stef that most important of all is what are the requirements that those archetypes should meet? Cheers, Sergio --- ## Post #34 by @Stef_Verlinden1 Hi sergio, > The first time I made them available was on September, 2008\. Since > then we > updated the archetypes to the newest version of ISO 22220 \(it is not > published yet\), 'refactored' some of them to make them more > 'internationalised', and made them follow the latest version of > openEHR > RM\. We used not only ISO 22220, but also ISO provider identification > standard and our own experience\. > > Of course, any feedback on them is very welcome\. Great\. Is this the same set that I received from Heather or has things changed since then\. Is it an idea to form a separate group to create the first official basic demographic archetype set which can be widely used\. In that case I also would like to hear from the review board/ Tony Shannon how to proceed\. As a seperate question to Tony: you're the new chair now for almost 6 months\. Can you provide us with some views/ outlooks of what is going to happen in 2009 and beyond\. Are there any plans/ ideas to set up an official \(top level?\) archetype repository so that one unified set of archetypes is being created\. If such a thing isn't installed quickly we run into a big risk that everbody starts using their 'home brewed' archetypes\. In that case interoperability will be lost and if one wants to create that we have to harmonise/ map all those archetypes a few years from now\. I can't imagine that's the idea behind openEHR\. Cheers, Stef --- ## Post #35 by @ian.mcnicoll Hi Stef, Your second question is very important\. Could you possibly ask it again in it's own thread as I think it is too important to be hidden amongst the demographic archetype thread? Ian --- ## Post #36 by @Stef_Verlinden1 I've posted it again under the name '2009 and beyond'\. Cheers, Stef --- ## Post #37 by @system Stef heb jij die archetypes? GERARD -- -- Gerard Freriks, MD Huigsloterdijk 378 2158 LR Buitenkaag The Netherlands T: +31 252544896 M: +31 620347088 E: [gfrer@luna.nl](mailto:gfrer@luna.nl) Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin 11 Nov 1755 --- ## Post #38 by @Sergio_M_Freire Hi Stef, If the set you have is dated December 2008, then it is the last one I sent to Heather\. Since then, based on private e\-mails and my own inspection of the archetypes, I corrected some small mistakes that are not detected by the archetype workbench\. Before sending them again to Heather I am waiting for further instructions on how to proceed, how the governance of archetypes will be, etc\. We also think of those demographic archetypes as a starting point\. There are some concepts behind them that must be clarified or even changed, several issues that arose when we started conceiving them that may lead to changes and maybe new requirements that may make necessary to expand the set\. We are happy to share experiences and ideas\. Cheers Sergio \-\-\-\-\-Mensagem original\-\-\-\-\- --- ## Post #39 by @Stef_Verlinden1 Hi Sergio, > If the set you have is dated December 2008, then it is the last one > I sent > to Heather\. In that case I have the latest version\. Thanks for sharing\. > > Since then, based on private e\-mails and my own inspection of the > archetypes, I corrected some small mistakes that are not detected by > the > archetype workbench\. Before sending them again to Heather I am > waiting for > further instructions on how to proceed, how the governance of > archetypes > will be, etc\. What I just found out is that within the openEHR Clinical knowledge manager \(http://openehr.org/knowledge/) it's possible to work together on archetypes and to control the different versions/ branches/ etc\. For know I don't know who decides which archetypes can enter the CKM/ who physically does that\. > We also think of those demographic archetypes as a starting point\. > There are > some concepts behind them that must be clarified or even changed, > several > issues that arose when we started conceiving them that may lead to > changes > and maybe new requirements that may make necessary to expand the set\. So let's start with it\. I've asked Sam Heard if it's possible to enter your latest set into the CKM but as said, I don't know if he's te person to decide/ do that\. > > We are happy to share experiences and ideas\. Good to hear\. > > Cheers > > Sergio Cheers, Stef --- ## Post #40 by @system Stef Verlinden wrote: > ``` > What I just found out is that within the openEHR Clinical knowledge > ``` > > ``` > manager ([http://openehr.org/knowledge/](http://openehr.org/knowledge/)) it's possible to work together > on archetypes and to control the different versions/ branches/ etc. > For know I don't know who decides which archetypes can enter the CKM/ > who physically does that. > > > ``` That's right....it's a beta and feel free to report any issues via the jira links in the About menu. Any "editor" of a team in CKM can upload new archetypes to CKM. For now, the easiest is for Heather to coordinate this, but as it will get bigger, there may be more editors working in parallel. At the moment Archetypes that are uploaded should be a little bit mature even if they are of course still drafts. You'll notice the states an archetype can have ...draft, under team review, published, (and obsolete and rejected) We are looking into creating a more or less separate space for very initial archetypes in the future. > ``` > > ``` > > > ``` > > We also think of those demographic archetypes as a starting point. > > There are > > some concepts behind them that must be clarified or even changed, > > several > > issues that arose when we started conceiving them that may lead to > > changes > > and maybe new requirements that may make necessary to expand the set. > > > > ``` > > ``` > > So let's start with it. I've asked Sam Heard if it's possible to enter > your latest set into the CKM but as said, I don't know if he's te > person to decide/ do that. > > ``` Demographic model archetypes should actually upload if they are correct ADL (parsable by the Java ADL Parser). I tried some of Sergio's archetypes on a test system and unless there was an error in the ADL that works fine. However viewing demographic model archetypes as HTML, mindmaps, as well as reviewing them is not yet fully implemented. Given the current interest in demographic model archetypes, we will soon implement full support for them in CKM. We are also likely to separate them a bit more from the EHR model archetypes to avoid confusion. Cheers Sebastian --- **Canonical:** https://discourse.openehr.org/t/demographic-archetypes/14690 **Original content:** https://discourse.openehr.org/t/demographic-archetypes/14690